Saturday Soiree - all welcome!!

[Appleblossom]

@Historylover 

I did not mind the drum at first,for a little bit, but tired of it quickly.   I guess I need substance, but not that interested in blow by blow discussions of political pit fights and pit stops. I do not care what party they are from....

that said, I am almost shocked to say I found a John Anderson conversation with Oxford Theologian ... worth it and sensitive to detail and nuance ...

.... eeeeuuuughhh face grimace ... I used to hate the Country Party... some leftie friends excused me as after they leave politics some get better and braoder in their thinking.... must be the hurly burly of traffic in Canberra that makes them lose their manners and their intelligence.

anyway ... not sure what you think ...

this one is slightly different ...

not listened to it yet.

I do not always like Mr Whittle ... do not always like Anglicanism ... but do like thoughtfulness engaged with history or politically aware discussion ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wK14FcSfow 

[Historylover]

Hmmm, politics @Appleblossom. I turn away from it these days and have even avoided most of the news of late. I did notice the mess in France though. It seems that everyone is on edge at the moment, and situations get out of control so easily. And the rest of the world is also in a tangle.

I have never seen these interviews with Mr. Whittle. I enjoyed the discussion. History is such a broad field and told mostly by the victor so, in my opinion, truth from all sides is often almost impossible to discern, and must be so difficult to collate, so distant from the events. It is disheartening to see the difficulty discussion from opposing viewpoints can cause, often causing tenure to be risked and disharmony to erupt, even in situations where such discussion should be par for the course. It is in every field. People don't know how to have different points of view anymore. It just causes knee-jerk hostility.

More and more, I am finding that people actually know little with certainty, or only within a narrow scope, and opposing, broader viewpoints throw them into a panic. We should be relishing the opportunity to learn from those who really do know better. I am learning to only speak when I know what I am talking about, otherwise just listen—or that's what I'm aiming for! We are losing the ability to stop, listen and think. 

I have been finding learning about the different religions and their beliefs to be equally mind-boggling at the moment. I am beginning to swing from one viewpoint to the other as they all tell such convincing accounts. I only know that the more I learn, the less I know. My mind is really doing it tough trying to figure out the truths in the Christian religion, how much of the Bible is true, how much is ancient systems of coercing people into a better way of living? 

Perhaps that's why people don't discuss things rationally these days. We're all right and we're all wrong at the same time.

[Appleblossom]

@Historylover 

I never did history so very aware I did not know a lot. Vaguely aware of tendencies. and let that be enuff. 

I did well in basic English and argument and learned to love English literature first and European lit in translation.  I did not really like English music til later and mine is very eclectic Tallis Purcell.  It was partly related to that I did not feel I could sing a lot of songs in the English language with conviction... ie too sexually submissive or explicit or coquettish ... not interested ...for some weird of my personal wiring.

Doing maths/science taught me solid things about certainty, and I have never gone along with being certain very much.  Yesterday A lady at church, very educated ... "absolutely"  normally I think of her as very intelligent but when certainty gets thrown around unucessarily I get wary.  Be emphatic if appropriate  ... .absolutes, like 100% is rare.

I think a lot of normal people ... are confused between ... certainties, beliefs and convictions ... and often adopt certainty for power reasons ... as it seems to less politically assailable ... this is one of the few advantages I have in a childhood where.....I could not take much for granted ... There is all the stuff about enthusiasm and energy and feeling ... play it with feeling ... authenticity and how one might be perceived as authentic or not ... strength gets confused with truth ... etc etc

I am wary of concepts of God or god and have done a lot of homework. I work with as many concepts that seem authentic to me and let the rest go.  That approach upsets a lot of dogmatic people or people... who have opinions about the strength of one's faith.  I see that as more relevant in discussing ...  I keep a mild agnosticism and a mild broad interest ... gojng ... it is a significant thread through all my life.  The churches do great things and TERRIBLE things....that much is certain for me ...

I am wary of most religious podcasts...though I do believe we have to do our own seeking and measure it against our own hearts and minds ... so if it is bringing out the best for you and meeting a need ... do what you have to do ... Too much evangelism to gain converts can be a bit of a numbers, bums on seats game. .I did not realise it had become quite a thing on the internet until I met a presumptuous pressie fella  who in the end I had to push away.... I am extremely sorry about the Hillsong debacles (he iiked them) but not at all surpirsed, as I dislike that kind of approach from the outset ... marketing ... is not spirituality ... I do not particularly like a lot of American styles and cultures.  There is a concept of ... Prosperity Gospel ... which I find offensive. 

I went through a dreadful marriage and separation with American Protestant family.  Learned a lot of good things but they destroyed my health and family ... so .. not good.  I had a lovely chat Saturday night with a lovely American lady daughter of a Lutheran pastor who actually cares .... there are all types ... maybe mine is not to judge ... but there is a pressure in life to ethically discern ... what to suffer ... and why.  I did get a book printed by a German Author ... called Suffering ... but Dorothy Soelle ... not finished it yet ... just dip into it,

I do think churches fulfill a function of community and belonging when they work well ... 

Have you heard of Fowler's stages of Spiritual Development. 

A world without religion might be even more dog eat dog ... idk ...predator prey kind of thing... so I have to the point I accept it as emanating from the hearts of humans ... seeking a better way ...  that is often a good thing ... when it is not taken too far.... to split hairs, start domestics or wars ...the misogyny ... can be shocking in it ... I do like monastic traditions... but living in those times would not have been much fun ... so not sure I would have joined up ... 

I guess ... due to what I have experienced, I maintain an analytical stance ... and a broad accepting stance ..I choose to see overlaps among different traditions ...and retreat ... I like that I learned the concept of retreat early in life. I appreciate the nuns who did good charity work and filled in gaps my parents could not fill.  Only beaten up by them a bit.  As far as biblical accuracy is concerned ... I looked at 4 translations of Song of Songs in uni ... saw how each could be taken in very different ways.  I know a fella did Phd in New Testament Studies.  I like intelligent discussion about it ALL ... dogmatism turns me away. I see it as about hope and love and charity, but that I have rose coloured glasses ... went to church Sunday ... and am starting to interact without my people pleasing or politeness filter ... God knows how long I will last there ...  I believe the bible has wonderful historical and metaphorical narratives and poetry, and is inspired, but written by men.  I like concept of Sophia ... womanly and wisdom.  Basically I do not know ,, but I continue to seek. 

On one level ... both my parents had religious mania ... so sayeth my ward file ...

I have done a lot of secular training in groups and community too ... so seen both sides... had troubles both sides ... I see it as human and not godly ...

[Historylover]

@Appleblossom, in the days when my ex-psy was my role-model, I assumed he was catholic by certain indicators (I later learned he wasn't, but perhaps his wife was?). Looking for my path in life, I decided to become catholic too. He made me research religions of the world first. I did so and when he asked me what I thought, I said that I could only be agnostic. I reasoned that a notion of an all-powerful god, or gods, was how the ancients understood the otherwise inexplicable. He told me that there were no gods and that atheism is not to be feared. So, I accepted his greater wisdom and became atheist too. I have remained so for decades. Many reason that we would not know right from wrong if we didn't have the bible, but Socrates, Confucius, Aesop all taught moral codes and all preceded Jesus and the prophets.

In recent months I have been dabbling in researching psi phenomena, and in understanding the scientifically-posed questions—'what is consciousness' and 'is the universe conscious'? That these questions could even be asked was initially beyond me. Everyone knew what consciousness was, didn't they? Apparently not.

Then the penny began to drop and I understood that consciousness is quite complex. Recently, I had been watching some episodes of psychic-medium, Tyler Henry. He is just one of many with this skill, eg. Allison DuBois from Medium. I could not conclude that it is just a party trick. They really were tapping into something, and it seemed to be consciousness. Realization after realization continued as I viewed YouTube videos on the subjects. I came to understand that telepathy, precognition, clairvoyance etc. access humanity's shared consciousness, where previously I had only understood that they were real, not how they could be.

I was recounting my experiences with the chief scientist at the Noetic Institute in USA where they collect people's psi experiences. After two communications, all the pieces seemed to fall into place. Scientists broadly are asking where consciousness comes from. I asked if consciousness is pre-programmed into our evolution, so that as our intellects develop, we develop the scientific knowledge to grasp that not only do we share consciousness, but also that the universe itself is conscious—which is what many scientists are saying. As if 'God' has pre-programmed our evolution to bring us to an understanding of 'Him'—like a fail-safe for when biblical times become lost in the mist of time. Was this 'intelligent design'? I asked if the conscious universe is therefore 'God'? I had started my e-mail as an atheist and finished it believing in a higher power. And that sent me off on more research on religions. 

This has taken me into YouTube videos on channeling, near-death experiences/remembrances etc. which did my head in and made me question everything I have ever understood or believed. I would previously have disregarded these stories. I truly don't know what to believe. With whom does one talk about this? I'm trying to respectfully discover the truth. It seems to be a more scientific field rather than religious.

Perhaps I am a drowning woman grasping at straws, trying to save my life.

[Appleblossom]

@Historylover  I used to submit to other's superior education and knowledge and wisdom too. Nowadays, I question more and speak up. Really Loving this conversation with you Bella. 

you said:

"Many reason that we would not know right from wrong if we didn't have the bible, but Socrates, Confucius, Aesop all taught moral codes and all preceded Jesus and the prophetsMany reason that we would not know right from wrong if we didn't have the bible, but Socrates, Confucius, Aesop all taught moral codes and all preceded Jesus and the prophets."

I agree.  In a way the conceot of Socratic Dialogues ... informed my decision and style on this forum.  I preferred Socrates to Plato ... but would not have wanted to be Socrates wife Xanthippe...and yes thought a lot about the hemlock and Athenian culture and his dilemnas ... etc ... before I actually knew anyone who had committed suicide.

Ethics, Morals, Decision making, Consciousness and Conscience are ALL complex.  So is Sc ience.  It is not a simple answer at all ... I see part of the mess the world is in currrently as due to Science been given too big a reign ... kind of being made into the New God, and it needs to be reined in a little ... Ethics Committees are all well and good ... but I am worried they are becoming ... superficial and so much cynicisms is not GOOD.  In the humanities side of my undergrad there was concern about rising Empiricism.  Dont get me wrong I LOVE Science, and done enuff and hung around with enough sciencey types ... too see a few curlee issues.

My ex, sciencey type, also pulled various psi  phenomena red herrings... to discredit me ... when it was not rational.... it has only been of vague interest to me...

If Einstein... kept an open mind about God ... thats good enough for me ... I do not believe BELIEF ... is the be all and end all ... but the attempt to live a GOOD LIFE.

Chesterton is an interesting Catholic writer ... as with most of us human, educated or not, we got some things reaonsably accurate or insightful ... but have bias and subjectivity ... plenty to argue with ... some think he was too conservative and he is a man of his time.  My grandfather and father were interested in theology, but it was limited,  I have quite a few book on Feminist Spirituality.

I have a lovely book by American Catholic Nuns... working in South America ...bought 2nd hand ... in a fete ... religious libraries were emptying there shelves and going modern ... and I scored well...

I have Father Bob's book and met him at his book launch.    The only reason I have Pope Francis' book ... is that it was my mums.  

I do not engage in hair splitting re God Yay or Nay..  My daughter became a staunch atheist ... and I love her dearly, regardless... she was trying to get them to do music ... like at church ... I did not enforce church or religion at all on my children ... I did not have sufficient power in the marriage to be strong about much, mostly I was a slave and followed my ex husband and was interested in his random exploring of his protestant roots.  It was something I could go along with .... Christian Science ... Methodist ... etc ... since I left ... I picked up a Mary Baker Eddy .. book .. at that fete ...lol... btw followed Catholic rule and my marriage was annulled ... I always appreciated that process ... as a good one and handled with respect.

Long posts ... heavy discussion ... but oh so weary of nothing conversatons.  Love to you

Apple

Btw .. I am a swimmer ... been surfing and done plenny of laps ... made a lovely daughter of a pastor laugh on Saturday ... cos I said ... some people know where all the pubs are ... I know where the churches and pools are ... not saying I have not come close to drowning ... but surely we can paddle along a bit ... hanging on to the side of the life raft ...

[Historylover]

@Appleblossom, I've really fallen down a rabbit hole with all of this investigation of the past few months. I no longer know what to think or believe. I never knew that life could be so bewildering. And I'm seriously broken and broken-hearted with the state of my life and my family. It never leaves me. I just try to numb it by keeping my mind occupied. Why have so many people gone to such trouble to destroy me throughout my entire life? Was I marked, or did I pose a threat to their perceived self-importance? Both?

As you can see, my ex-psy went to considerable lengths to educate me which I would never have had access to otherwise. I know he's enjoying my suffering and that makes it worse because I gave him my all. It brings to mind the term 'cruel, unusual and degrading treatment', which is exactly what it is. He won't let me 'go' until he has all he needs from me, so I have to keep myself occupied. I no longer have a direction and if I find one, he'll only let me go as far as suits him and then it will be back to square one again.

@Appleblossom, I can't even pray to a god whose existence I question. I could scream but it wouldn't do justice to the depth of my despair. Everyone knows what I am going through and the only thought they have is that they are glad it is not them.

Have you been rehearsing for a new opera? And how is your new musical instrument going? Was it a recorder? I'm again thinking of buying a keyboard, but it would have to be inexpensive and I hate the thought of its sound. I'll toss the thought around for a while, I guess.

Anyway...looking for a new life-raft. Love to you too.

[Appleblossom]

@Historylover 

There are many decent affordable keyboards around ...88 keys ...and getting weighted keys is important ... as it gives you more ability to influence the sound ... and resenbles acoustic pianos so skills can be transferred more easily.

Its a great distraction for 'at home' bodies, and so many musical directions it can open up to.  Also keyboards can be turned down so not to worry neighbours ...

and play all night if you want ...dont be critical, be open and do your best .... great way to keep mind active and mind/body co-ordination.

Bastien and Alfred are 2 standard adult tutors I have used ... there are others ...I have had a lot of adult beginners ... never too late to learn ... just adjust expectations ... it can give a lot of pleasure ... adults have it easier than kids... in the intellectual capacity ... to read and learn ... harder to teach old dog new tricks ... but still possible.

****

When I was in 20s so many people had different experiences ... Lots of people tried to impress upon me ... their specialness ... in the psi field and in the miracles and 'being close to God' fields ... I did not know ... did not argue ...was polite ... in the end ... I have let it be about individual beliefs and practices ... and tried to find my own path ... lilke the Little Drummer Boy ... Even prayer is ... a broad church ... is it rosary, worship in liturgy, private, meditation, contemplation singing ... if it does not feel authentic do not press it too hard ... a few years ago I did the Ignatian Exercises ... glad I tried it ... do not think it is right to keep repeating... what works for one may not be right for another ...or at another time ...

[Shaz51]

Hello @Appleblossom , @Historylover , @StanD , @TAB 

We have been loving playing music therapy each days even going through the evenings 

[Historylover]

Music really does soothe the savage beast, @Shaz51. Nice to hear from you. What did you do with the snake skin? 

[Historylover]

I'm laying everything aside now, @Appleblossom. I don't need to go further with psi or the other fields. I need a complete change of direction. I'll see what turns up. I'd prefer a violin but that is just too noisy for here. I don't need to be Mozart, I'd just need to scratch a musical itch. Perhaps it's just a passing thought.

Just too tired to talk further. Thanks for the chat and shoulder. Tomorrow is another day.